The Cabinet minister said the turnover in her office was "very comparable" to any other office at Parliament. Photo: RNZ / Samuel Rillstone
Cabinet minister Kiri Allan is rejecting the description of events provided by the head of the Department of Conservation (DOC) over claims of a breakdown in the relationship with staff.
DOC director-general Penny Nelson in a statement on Wednesday confirmed reports a staff member had ended their secondment to Allan's office early more than a year ago, because working relationships were "not running as smoothly" as they might.
Nelson said it was bad enough that she discussed it with Internal Affairs, which manages Ministerial Services, but no further concerns were brought to her attention and she believed relationships had improved.
National Emergency Management Agency chief executive David Gawn also said he was also aware of concerns regarding relationships in Allan's office with staff seconded from his agency.
However, the prime minister's office said no formal complaints and no further issues had been raised after work was done to improve the situation.
Allan has been on leave for the past week, and posted on social media on Wednesday explaining she had been struggling with her mental health but was feeling better and would be back at work the following day.
Ahead of appearing at a select committee on Thursday, she disagreed with Nelson's characterisation of the events.
"I'm sorry, that's not what I have before me, that's not the details that have been raised with me. There have never been any formal allegations put to me - these are serious allegations and I would have expected a serious process to be followed if that was indeed the case.
"I don't have any further details on that than you do. I don't understand what those allegations are. I know that we've had a pretty awesome relationship.
"I'm pretty proud of our crew and I'm pretty proud of our team. We're the kind of office where we run hard while we've got the ball, and I think it's been a pretty great place to work, to be honest."
She said she would not talk about specific individuals, but the turnover in her office was "very comparable" to any other office at Parliament and heads of agencies had never raised concerns about staff with her.
"I think that New Zealanders rightly can expect that of us as ministers our job is to get results for New Zealanders, and when you're working with senior public servants it's to be clear about those expectations, it's to lay them down and to work until you get outcomes.
"Some people love the place and they want to stick around, some people this is not a right fit for them, so I'm not going to get into personal details about that person - I do think though if there are further questions down that road you can take it to Penny Nelson, who's the director-general of the department."
She said if there had been serious allegations put to her she would have had to respond in a formal process, but that had never occurred. She did not think she was a tough boss.
"I don't think so, nah I think I can be a fair bit of fun, I can be pretty passionate, and I'm definitely not a Wellington politician - that's something I'm not. I'm from the regions, we do things a little bit differently but I think I'm fair, I think I have clear expectations and when those aren't met I'm clear about those as well."
She said she had never shouted at staff. Questioned on general concerns raised, she said no formal allegations were ever raised.
"We often frequently talk about a whole range of different issues, whether those are policy expectations that haven't been met or are being met, whether those are different characteristics within the office, whether we've got a good fit for purpose within the team, but I've never ever had any allegations put to me that I've had to deal with on a staffing front. None."
Allan challenges opposition over 'fishing exercise'
Speaking at the select committee, National MP Simeon Brown sought to question Allan over the matter, but was challenged by Labour committee members over the relevance to the business of the day - funding under Allan's Regional Development portfolio.
"I'm relating it to policy advice and related services to ministers which is what MBIE provides to the minster's office," Brown said.
"The question is relating to questions around behaviour of the minister and what impact that may have on staffing decisions within the minister's office."
He was challenged again, but Allan stepped in and said she and the officials with her were happy to answer.
Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) chief executive Carolyn Tremain said public sector bosses would regularly check with staff about how the relationship with the minister's office was working, and she was not aware of any issues or concerns beyond those with other ministerial offices.
Brown put to Tremain that she had received a text on 10 March about the behaviour or conduct of Allan. He was again pulled up on it being outside the scope, but Allan again allowed the question "given the interest in this particular issue".
Tremain said the message was subject to an Ombudsman's review, and she would take guidance from the Ombudsman's office - but it was between her and the head of Kānoa - the Regional Economic Development & Investment Unit - and related to communication about an event that day.
She later told reporters the message was not about Allan's behaviour.
As Brown was again challenged over the line of questioning, Allan gave further context.
"I've been very clear in all my answers to date on this issue that we have not got any issues that preclude us from being able to undertake the job that New Zealanders expect of us. I understand there has been a fishing exercise undertaken by some members, I understand that story has been shopped about for some time, but the reality is most of us come to work every single day with a focus on getting things done for New Zealanders.
"This isn't a blood sport for most of us, this has real-life implications and consequences in real-life places like the regions I represent, Te Tai Rāwhiti which have been absolutely decimated recently."
She said the funding provided by Kānoa had transformed regions like hers - and others like Nelson.
"So Mr Brown when you are ready, you've heard from my CEO and you're welcome to hear from the head of Kānoa as well, you have OIA'd everything under the sun and you're still yet to turn anything up. So have the opportunity to ask if there's anything that prohibits me as a minister from doing my job ... if so let's litigate that, in absence of that I encourage us all to focus on what New Zealanders care about."
Speaking to reporters afterwards, Tremain said she was not aware of any concerns raised by MBIE staff seconded to Allan's office.
"We have a very functioning, highly functional relationship with Minister Allan's office," she said.
"At times we fall short of her expectations and that's communicated, that's absolutely fine - we expect that from any minister's office."
Head of Kānoa Robert Pigou said he had no concerns about Allan's managerial style.
"No. In fact we have a, you know, really good, open, relationship and I have had far more challenging ministers to deal with in the past - in fact I cut my teeth on them."
Justice Secretary Andrew Kibblewhite said he had not heard of any such concerns or complaints from his staff.
"No, I've got a very stable team in the office, it's been there since before Minister Allan arrived and we haven't had any turnover there."
He suggested a bit of disagreement was to be expected.
"That's the nature of the thing. The minister will want us to get some work done, I might say 'Minister that's going to take four months' and she'll say 'Andrew, what about two months' and we could have a robust conversation about that.
"On balance the minister will win more than I do but I've got constraints, I've got a workforce that can only deliver what they can do and so there'll be a bit of push and shove: We'll often have a 'okay well minister what might we have to put on the backburner then'."
