5:00 pm today

Mata Season 2 | Episode 13: Jackson on Treaty Principles, Pharmac, and the Coalition

From Mata with Mihingarangi Forbes , 5:00 pm today

Labour Māori Development spokesperson Willie Jackson says the government is introducing the Treaty Principles Bill "by stealth".

Opposition to the ACT Party's proposed bill continues to grow, with former National Minister Hekia Parata describing it as a misuse of the select committee and backing calls to boycott the process.

She said it should be left as "an echo chamber of that small, easily identified crowd".

The criticism came after a group of mātanga reo Māori language experts criticised the bill for mistranslating the text of Te Tiriti. 

A draft of the bill is expected to be released to the public this year.

Jackson said Parata's criticism of the bill was "meaningful", considering her background.

"You're not talking about,you know, some two-bit MP - you're talking about one of the star performers for National. Really proud to see her come out like that," he told Mata host Mihingarangi Forbes. 

Jackson said he had heard other prominent Māori calling the bill an "unspeakable violation" and "the most flagrant breach of the Treaty in modern times".

"Chris Finlayson, Hekia's former colleague, is just furious… Andrew Kibblewhite, secretary of justice, he said there's no support for it in legislation, judicial interpretation and expert opinion… Jim Bolger came out against it. Doug Graham came out against it. Professor Andrew Geddis came out against it - he's pākehā, you know? We're not just talking Māori here - calling it totally reckless.

"But this [ACT leader David] Seymour, no, he knows more than everyone." 

Jackson said even if National did not support it, even letting it get to select committee was causing "so much damage". 

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has previously ruled out his party supporting the bill beyond select committee.

Jackson said recent changes to Pharmac's directive made it seem as if the bill had been "introduced anyway". 

Associate health minister David Seymour last week told Pharmac it was inappropriate for the agency to keep considering the Treaty of Waitangi's place in the health sector. The move prompted one of the drug-buying agency's directors to quit in protest.

The directive to Pharmac followed other changes criticised as being anti-Māori, such as  scrapping the planned Māori Health Authority and telling government departments to use their English names more prominently than Māori.

"It's almost as if the Treaty principles have been introduced by stealth, you know? … When was the precedent that the former acting prime minister sent a directive to one of our major agencies, directing them to ignore their obligation? … Surely that's a breach of the constitution. The Treaty is a part of our constitution, and and you've got a senior senior minister - acting prime minister at the time, probably operating in his associate health role - directing this agency to no longer take into account the Treaty of Waitangi.

"In my view, that's a breach of his responsibilities in terms of the constitution. I think it's absolutely shocking."

He reiterated previous comments he had made about Seymour being "maybe the most dangerous politician in New Zealand history".

"We've heard Winston [Peters, NZ First leader] moot it during the years, and Shane Jones, they've mooted this type of behaviour, but we've never had anyone who's ever actually introduced this against all the experts from all sides of the spectrum."

In February, Seymour - launching a campaign promoting the bill - said "the opposition have claimed we are trying to re-write, or even abolish, the Treaty. This is false".

"It's a principle that has the backing of our nation's founding document, with Article Three of Te Tiriti promising the same rights and duties for all New Zealanders," Seymour said. "The Treaty Principles Bill will not change the Treaty itself. That was set in 1840 and will remain forever. What we are seeking to do is continue the process of defining the Treaty principles, for the first time incorporating the voices of all people through a democratic Parliamentary process, instead of through the Tribunal or the courts." 

Jackson said that argument only held up if "you don't know the history and you don't know the background and you don't know that there is a special right for Māori" in New Zealand. 

"It all sounds very wonderful, doesn't it? It's all 'we are the world, you're such a lovely, wonderful man, David Seymour'... I've heard you try and debate it with him, and you just don't get any sense coming back."

As for Pharmac director Dr Anthony Jordan's departure, Jackson said it was a "slight on the government that, you know, really intelligent and experienced people like Dr Anthony Jordan are stepping aside from boards".

"It's a shame, because we need brilliant young Māori like that involved in this kaupapa… but again, Seymour won't won't take any notice of it… They'll be looking for a replacement who is not so pro-Treaty."

Jackson admitted Labour could have done more during its six years in power to enshrine Te Tiriti in constitutional arrangements. 

"No doubt. I was proud of what we did. Could we have done more? … We passed a heck of a lot. We got through matariki and, you know, we set up the Māori Health Authority… I think when you put in Māori seats, you know, put in a Māori health authority, you have a national Māori holiday, you know, they probably sent a few of them off the edge.

"But I'll tell you this - I don't believe what we did, you know, really factored in most New Zealanders' views. I think most New Zealanders - and that's what we get back from focus groups - for most New Zealanders, it's about cost of living, it's about housing, it's about education, it's about health."

He said most Kiwis were "grown-up" and would not have voted Labour out simply because they did not like Māori.

Te Māngai Pāho

Te Māngai Pāho Photo: Te Māngai Pāho

NZ On Air

NZ On Air Photo: NZOA

Former Minister for Māori Development Willie Jackson shares his views on the upcoming Treaty Principles Bill, Seymour's Pharmac Treaty directive. Then we're joined by panelists Hinurewa Te Hau and Dr. Lara Greaves.