Transcript
Mark Brown: It’s taken years to get to the point where we are now, to have the relevant legislation in place, subsidiary regulations as well, to build up capacity within the government, the establishment of our Seabed Minerals Authority. We've known about our minerals since the 1960s, when research vessels first came up with samples from the ocean floor. So we've taken very much a very slow and steady approach to get to where we are today, but it's inevitable that for a country that is 99.99 percent ocean that we will turn to our ocean for our livelihood for our survival, and particularly during this time of covid when our tourism industry is essentially zero. It's important for us to look at diversifying the economy, and of course with the demand for the minerals that are held in our nodules drives even further the need for more research exploration, to fully understand the marine environment, to see if we can extract these nodules without damaging the ocean.
Johnny Blades: But this whole area is fraught with risk, isn't it, because this is an area very deep in the ocean which hasn't been harmed yet by humans?
Mark Brown: That's right. That's why it's important to conduct good research and good exploration, to actually determine and get a better understanding of the marine environment, the life forms that exist in these great depths, we're talking five to 6000 metres, before we can make an informed decision on whether we take a next step and that is to extracting these minerals, which is why it's very important that when we did put the tenders out inviting companies to submit applications for exploration, that we have in place a very rigorous due diligence process. And in that regard we're reaching out to governments both in New Zealand and Australia to their authorities to assist us in undergoing this due diligence so that we do have good, proper and robust mechanisms in place to protect ourselves from things such as companies that are not quite prepared for exploration or companies that are under-capitalised, these other sorts of things that we need to have in place to ensure we protect our interests.
Johnny Blades: The New Zealand experience with seabed mining had gone through EPA processes and to the courts and it was ultimately rejected. Is that something the Cook Islands takes heed of?
Mark Brown: Yeah I think the situations are quite different. With what New Zealand was doing and what we're looking at. We're quite comfortable that in our consultations with our people. They see the need for us to diversify the economy. So people have been accustomed to a level of prosperity that we had under tourism. And we need to look at ways at how we can maintain that, and the minerals programme gives us an option, the global demand for these metals, as illustrated through conversion to renewables. The movement towards electric vehicles is predicting a significant demand, particularly for metals like nickel and cobalt, copper which are in these minerals.
So for us, it's, it's a progression to something that we've already been talking about for many, many years. And this is an important next step and that is to invite applications for exploration so we really look forward to receiving those applications, going through a thorough due diligence process and then relying on the advice of an international panel of experts that will be our licensing panel to give us recommendations on which companies would be approved and which should not.
Johnny Blades: The batteries for electric vehicles, though... the jury's still out on how those materials are best to be sourced. And really there's a very compelling argument for recycling rather than dabbling with the seabed environment.
Mark Brown: Yes, well I mean the predictions are that there's going to be a 500 percent increase in demand for a mineral like cobalt, for example, by the year 2030. So it's these things that are driving a lot of the larger multinational companies, the car manufacturing companies to look at sources where they're getting cobalt. And currently, you know, some of these sources out of Africa, for example, are not harvested in the most environmentally safe way or in socially accepted ways, which makes exploring our minerals, an option, or for some of these companies. So I think for us we are doing our very best to make sure that we cover all our bases in the next steps moving forward.
Johnny Blades: Ultimately, it is a gamble, isn't it, because of the nature of the ocean? It is not something that can be contained, so it is a huge gamble that you're willing to take.
Mark Brown: Yes, I think it's an educated gamble that we are taking. It's one that we are looking at a very small part of our EEZ. Currently close to 2 million square kilometres, the actual areas that will be under exploration, very small. The actual areas that will be undertaken if we turn to harvesting will be smaller still.
Johnny Blades: But once you go into that area, how can it be contained? That's a problem that will likely stream outwards, the sediments and waste from the actions that you take on the sea floor.
Mark Brown: You’ve got to have an understanding these minerals sit on the surface of the sea floor so they will be plucked off there's no digging that's involved. And of course the research and the testing of the technology has to prove that there won't be any environmental damage, there won't be any sediment plume that will come through the ocean floor. These are the sorts of things that the exploration will be able to identify for us.
Johnny Blades: It's not conclusive about the water columns being unaffected and so forth. It's hard to find a scientist who has been looking at this area, who says there won't be any significant impact.
Mark Brown: Well, exploration has been undertaken for about 20 years now in the ISA, the international seabed area by various countries. So there is some information out there on the impacts on the seafloor. The types of technology that is going to be used for extracting whether you use vacuum suction pumps or whether you use crawlers. There is information out there but as I said it's not until you actually conduct your exploration and research that you’ll get a true picture of what is going to occur, but also get an understanding of the marine life that exists at that depth.
Johnny Blades: So is it because of the pandemic knocking out tourism, at least for now, that has given some haste to your move to plow on with this?
Mark Brown: No not at all, this has been part of our programme for a number of years, we've always intended to open up for exploration this year. But Covid has certainly slowed things down for us in terms of our ability to bring specialists in and get work done, we've had to do that, remotely. But certainly the, the intention to open for exploration was already planned a number of years ago. And the Covid situation I guess highlights, if anything, the need for us to diversify the economy and look at other ways that our people can be supported.
Johnny Blades: It just seems like the Cook Islands is going against the grain here within the region when other countries are, one, calling for a 10-year moratorium on these activities, but also talking about ocean conservation - that's very much a key thing, and yet the Cook Islands are not going with the grain here.
Mark Brown: Well our Marae Moana Act protects our ocean for us. It includes protected areas of 50 nautical miles around every island where no commercial fishing or no mining activity can occur. It allows us a system of ocean governance that we as a people can enrich ourselves from our resource which is our fishery, and our minerals. So for us, I think that's a sensible thing for our government to do.
I don’t like to think that we're just like a bunch of sheep following around another bunch of people. We are doing what we think is best. I think the 10-year moratorium call is a bit arbitrary. We base our decisions on information and knowledge, not on a time-frame. So, until and unless that information gained from research is available that will allow us to make an informed decision to move forward, we don't support that call for a moratorium. In fact, I'd say that a moratorium would not advance research and exploration in our oceans. It would tend to not support it, I guess, it would deny it. So the calls that are being made by some of the countries, we acknowledge them, but we as a sovereign country also have an obligation to our people to make sure that we are able to have the resources to make their lives a lot better.
Johnny Blades: The marine environment is this important resource for your people and indeed the people of the Pacific Islands, but very few people have been down there. It's a very slow evolving ecosystem. Mining exploration really is just the next step before mining itself. So really this seems like the Cook Islands is willing to gamble on that precious resource.
Mark Brown: No, it's not a gamble, it's a mineral wealth has been deposited in large numbers in our ocean. It doesn't really exist in these in these concentrations in other oceans, other than the international seabed area. So it's not a gamble. I mean, countries have been drilling for oil in the ocean for many, many decades now, you know, and they’ve learnt lessons on safety, on how to ensure that there is minimal environmental impact.
And if you have a look at countries like Norway who deal in their oceans with the oil and gas, and how they've managed their fisheries side by side with the oil and gas, they give you a very good example of how good governance in this field in the sector should be done. So while there are examples of how badly things can go in other countries, there are also some very good examples of how to do things properly. So as a country, we are looking to be one of those countries who will lead the way in terms of environmental protection, in terms of protecting our ocean. These are things we take very seriously as an island state, as an ocean people. We’re certainly not going to conduct any sort of exploitation of our minerals if it causes any environmental damage. That just will not occur.
Johnny Blades: Most scientists say that it will.
Mark Brown: They probably haven't been in the ocean that deep, to be able to make an informed decision. For us we would base our decisions on science and facts and what can be gained from research and exploration.
Johnny Blades: The scientists conducting this research, that you speak of, in the Cook Islands, are they going to be independent, they're not going to be connected to the mining companies?
Mark Brown: Well, there will be companies that will conduct the exploration, but there will certainly be room for independent scientists to conduct research which we would encourage, because it would just add veracity to our argument that we are doing everything we can to ensure we know about the environment, the marine life that is down there. If there was going to be harvesting at that depth, what impact will it have on the marine life. What we know for sure is there is very little marine life at that ocean depth, but it does exist in very small microscopic forms and other forms of course.
Johnny Blades: And that's the danger, isn't it, that if you mess with them, you're missing with the whole structure.
Mark Brown: Well that’s the thing. We need to know what impact it has and that's what research and exploration will do for us. One thing I do know the small area that we do look to conduct any sort of activity on will be a very small part of our EEZ. But we've taken a very cautious approach, we're applying the best possible environmental standards. We're using the precautionary approach in moving this forward. At this stage I'm very interested to see what the response will be for the call for tenders and see how many people do actually put in applications.
