Senior ministers raised concerns about the commitments the government made to survivors of abuse in care and the need to lower expectations, according to notes obtained by RNZ.
The comments came at a meeting on the eighth floor of the Beehive on 26 August, where ministers and government heads discussed what was needed for the formal apology for abuse in care on 12 November.
The 10 ministers who sit on the Cabinet committee overseeing the government's response to the Royal Commission of Inquiry were expected to be present, alongside the finance minister and the prime minister.
They were later joined by the leaders of government agencies.
The day afterward, then-education secretary Iona Holsted sent notes from the meeting to senior leaders in the Ministry for Social Development, Oranga Tamariki, the Ministry of Health, Crown Law, the Ministry of Justice, Police, the State Services Commission, Treasury, Corrections, and the Crown Response Unit.
RNZ obtained a copy of those notes.
"AG [Attorney-General Judith Collins] reinforced concerns about setting precedents and being careful about what we commit to," Holsted wrote.
"Min Upston [Minister for Social Development Louise Upston] reiterated her concern about needing to lower expectations."
RNZ requested an interview with Judith Collins, which was declined.
RNZ also asked Collins and Upston to explain their comments.
"Ministers meet all the time on a range of issues, as you would expect. I can't discuss what happens in specific meetings but I can say that, as New Zealand's senior law officer, the attorney-general provides legal advice on a range of matters to the government," Collins said.
"Government ministers meet frequently to discuss many issues. What is said in those meetings is confidential, but I can say that the government is committed to change and will do everything in our power to try and prevent abuse, harm, and neglect from occurring in the future," Upston echoed.
Neither minister denied the characterisation of their comments at the meeting.
Collins had already come under pressure in her role as attorney-general after previously denying to the United Nations that torture occurred in New Zealand.
Attorney-General Judith Collins. Photo: RNZ / Angus Dreaver
Earlier this year, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon apologised to survivors of the Lake Alice Hospital child and adolescent unit, who were tortured at the hands of state employees.
Survivors of other psychiatric hospitals and units also believe their treatment amounted to torture, though the government has denied it.
RNZ asked the attorney-general if she believed she remained the right person for the role considering the disquiet among survivors, her comments at the August 26 meeting and her previous comments - she did not respond directly to the question.
"In relation to my statement to the UN in 2014, it was made in response to Iran - a country where torture of opponents of the regime is well documented - accusing New Zealand of not reporting state-sponsored torture. New Zealand was not engaging in state-sponsored torture in 2014, and no one should conflate the two issues," Collins said.
"The government acknowledged in July, for the first time, that some children and young people at the Lake Alice Unit in the 1970s were tortured as defined in the United Nations Convention Against Torture. The government has apologised for the reprehensible treatment of these children and young people, and apologised for taking so long to acknowledge that what they experienced in the 1970s was torture.
"I'd like to thank and acknowledge the bravery and determination of all those who shared their experiences with the Royal Commission."
But survivor advocates told RNZ that Collins should resign from the role as she no longer had the trust of the community.
"[Survivors] can't have confidence in her at all," abuse survivor and advocate Ken Clearwater said.
"We need people that we can fully trust."
He was not surprised by her attitude towards survivors.
"From what I remember Judith Collins never wanted this to go ahead in the first place. They never wanted this Royal Commission to go ahead because they weren't concerned about what they could do for us, but what it's going to cost them."
Survivor Tu Chapman echoed that view.
"I'm not surprised they're they're taking this position."
State abuse survivor Tu Chapman. Photo: Reece Baker/RNZ
So far the government and its ministers had contradicted the promise of the prime minister on 24 July to provide whatever survivors needed, Chapman said.
"You can see a pattern happening here. The pattern is she is trying to protect the decisions she has made."
Collins needed to "tread carefully", Chapman said.
It followed another incident RNZ revealed earlier this year.
ACC and Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey did not read a report detailing the abuse of survivors of St John of God before meeting with a group of survivors in May.
The report was published in 2023 and provided to Doocey six months before the meeting, but he admitted to a survivor at the meeting he had not read it.
Collins, Upston and Doocey all sit on the Cabinet committee overseeing the government's response to the abuse in care inquiry.
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