Multi-party debate exposes lack of trust between David Seymour and Winston Peters

Analysis - A debate tonight offered further evidence of the gap between the ACT and NZ First leaders who may soon be in coalition negotiations with the National Party to form a new government.

ACT leader David Seymour, NZ First leader Winston Peters, Greens co-leader James Shaw and Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi lined up to take part in the 1News Multi-Party Debate.

It was moderated by Q+A host Jack Tame and was promoted as a forum that would put the potential kingmakers on the spot about the issues that would be important to them in any negotiations to form a coalition with either of the two major parties, National and Labour.

The cost of living, removing GST on fruit and vegetables, and co-governance were all hot topics in TVNZ's studio in Auckland.

All four began the debate answering what were the values of their party that were in the best interests of New Zealand.

Seymour was then asked whether he trusted Peters.

"Well the problem is I don't know where he stands on almost any issue, he said he'd stick up for licensed firearm owners, sold them down the river; said he'd stand up for farmers, voted for James Shaw's Zero Carbon Act; said he'd stop co-government, He Puapua was dreamed up under his nose. Even as deputy prime minister he couldn't stop it."

Peters responded: "This is rubbish, that's nonsense. There'll be people out there saying grow up; we need adults in the room."

He went on to say it was not his job to trust Seymour - he would need to convince his caucus colleagues. "It's not a very good start now," he said.

He also said it was untrue his party would be unstable in any coalition and former National prime minister Jim Bolger and former Labour prime minister Helen Clark had defended him from such claims recently.

The exchange set the tone for an event that delivered plenty of irritable moments.

Superannuation was another disputed policy for the pair with Peters saying it was affordable to keep the qualifying age at 65 and parties that wanted to raise it were "scaremongering".

ACT intends raising the age but Peters said there was widespread support around the country "that the old deserve to retire with a bit of dignity and grace".

In post-debate analysis on TV1, commentator Janet Wilson said National leader Christopher Luxon should be "extremely worried".

"I think he should be thinking 'yikes, I've got a problem here' if he hasn't already started to think that. I think their antipathy was there for everybody to see."

RNZ journalist Guyon Espiner said Seymour saying he didn't trust Peters wasn't a great place to be going into a "three-way handshake".

The debate also revealed animosity between Seymour and Shaw.

During a discussion on climate change and whether Kiwi farmers should be cutting their herd numbers, Seymour said it made no sense for New Zealand to take any drastic actions that would make farmers go broke.

He said Shaw has been a failure as Climate Change minister and had spent too much time talking to people overseas on the issue.

"I call him James Offshore," he said. Shaw retorted that Seymour was overusing his quota of stupid remarks.

While they were debating the causes of crime, Seymour once again criticised Labour for reducing the prison population and as Shaw prepared to air his views Seymour told him to hurry up.

"David, I am starting to realise the real heroes are the people who can tolerate you," he replied.

Waititi meanwhile maintained the number of Māori inmates had not dropped enough and there needed to be better efforts to rehabilitate them once they were released from prison.

The place of Te Tiriti and co-governance stirred some strong feelings among all the leaders, with Waititi coming up with the best line of the night that his party had been in opposition since 1840.

Tensions rose when Seymour reiterated ACT's position on holding a referendum on the Treaty of Waitangi and that it simply gave Māori and the Crown the same rights.

Waititi jumped in saying ACT's position was a fairytale and trampled on the mana of the Treaty.

He said the Treaty was an agreement to allow the Crown to govern over their own people, for Māori to govern themselves and to be treated as equals.

Waititi also promoted the creation of a Māori education authority that would offer tamariki a better form of education than what they were receiving in the Pākehā system.

However, any suggestions he made to advocate for Māori were jumped on by Peters and Seymour - the former accusing Waititi of "a racist separatist" approach, while the ACT leader said he supported the Treaty process and putting right the wrongs of the past but it was unnecessary to insist on looking at the family tree to sort things out.

When asked by Tame if any thought the National Party tax plan was credible, none of the leaders raised their hands.

In a followup question the leaders were asked if anyone thought Labour's policy of removing GST from fruit and vegetables was credible, again no leaders raised their hands.

The leaders had a lighter moment when Shaw challenged Seymour on how many job cuts he planned to make in the public service, with the latter saying it was 15,000.

Waititi interjected that represented a lot of swimming lessons, with Seymour assuring him the swimming lessons were safe.

As for a winner, the commentators gave it to Shaw.

Former Labour MP Kris Faafoi said he did "an excellent job". Wilson was also impressed with Waititi's performance.

"I think he [Waititi] spoke passionately on the things the party cares about and to his base, but also to James, so I would give them equal goes."