Mark Robinson. Photo: PHOTOSPORT
Mark Robinson isn't usually short of a word, but one question has him staring at the ceiling and wondering: what was it like to be an All Black?
"It was … a massive privilege," the NZ Rugby chief executive says after a long pause. He's on a Zoom call from Invercargill, one stop on a tour of the southern provinces to meet with union delegates.
"I grew up dreaming about it, you go through phases where it's more prevalent or realistic than at other times. But you never forget about it, ever. I didn't have a lot of time in the jersey, but I cherish what I did have. Some great memories, but some bloody challenging ones too."
Challenging is certainly a pertinent word to loop the discussion back to today. Robinson ponders what happened back then, in a period of All Black rugby that had just turned professional, that shaped the way he thinks about his role now.
"The margins in test rugby are really fine. The difference between 20-odd years ago and now isn't much. You have moments and cycles and have patches where form and confidence and momentum can swing. That's why you have to keep working on it, keep looking for those little gains because often there's not much to changing the fortunes of the season."
Mark Robinson playing in a test against Italy, at Waikato Stadium in Hamilton on 8 June 2002. Photo: © Photosport Ltd 2002 www.photosport.nz
All very fitting given that it very much feels like change is in the air regarding the way the game is played, run and presented to the fans. But to look forward, it's important to look back to the time when a then 26-year-old Robinson made his test debut.
It was an unusual one: 1 July, 2000 was the last test played against Scotland in New Zealand, so therefore the last time the All Blacks have worn white jerseys on home soil. Which makes Robinson the last player to debut in such circumstances.
It was a foul night at Eden Park, hosting its second ever test under lights, with Robinson among the try scorers in a 48-14 win.
"Personally, that was a highlight. I have a lot of things I remember about that match and that week."
However, the easily won Scotland series isn't the first thing that comes to mind when people think of that season. This was when the Wallabies were world champions and Bledisloe Cup holders, with the two tests played in 2000 becoming instant classics.
The test in Sydney, in front of a record test crowd of almost 110,000, is regarded by many as the greatest game ever played.
In another unique moment, Robinson's status as a non-playing squad member means he ended up a radio co-commentator for that match.
"I was blessed to be with the late, great Graham Moody [ZB rugby commentator]. He was an amazing guy; I remember hearing it back a while ago and when Jonah scored you can hear me in the background giving it a 'whoop whoop'.
"The style of rugby, we didn't have the same sort of structure. The body shapes, the speed was different, there was a lot more time and space… probably more errors and turnovers, so it went backwards and forwards. Even though we thought we were getting more professional, it was a stage of the game that was exciting.
"We were playing a great brand of rugby for the Crusaders in 2002. The crowds that year felt like it was sold out every week. We had an amazing following. But times change."
Robinson quickly realises what he's walked into with that last remark. The ever-growing narrative around rugby right now is the apparent lack of interest by the public in attending games, so what can we learn from back then about now?
Mark Robinson making a run for the Crusaders with lock Chris Jack on the left. Photo: PHOTOSPORT
"There's been points made about in-stadia experience. We've seen some great crowds in Christchurch, Hamilton, Lautoka and Suva, and we think during this finals series we'll see them as well.
"What we want is quality rugby regularly, more uncertainty in the results, a great style that's unique to this part of the world. Then we've got to find better ways to engage. The reality is we've very rarely increased the fan experience and we need to change that very quickly.
"There's a view that we haven't changed or adapted as fast as we should have. That idea of putting fans and players at the centre of our decision-making is really fundamental to us."
We are a generation on from Carlos Spencer flipping the bird at an incensed Lancaster Park crowd and the infamous 'I Hate You Auckland' sign, so how do we get that impassioned buy -in back? In those days that Robinson was out on the field, it wasn't even necessary to have to promote a game like the Crusaders and Blues due to the rabid in-built rivalry.
"It was that sort of attitude that's kind of the problem now," admits Robinson.
"We loved our fans, but that didn't mean they got invested in and thought about it as much as they should have.
"We know that there's lots of good stuff around law reforms and how it's related positively to the broadcast product. So, there's really impressive stats around that. But we've got work to do, which is why we're so adamant to have this dedicated Super Rugby commission set up quickly.
"It'll deal with the look and feel of the competition, different ways to invest in technology to connect with fans has to be better. That's on the radar and we hope we can resolve that with our mates in Aussie as soon as we can."
In good company
Robinson's time in the All Blacks only stretched out for nine test appearances over two seasons. But what's notable about it is who he played alongside and what they're doing now, most notably who was packing on the side of the scrum. Scott Robertson has loomed as a major figure in New Zealand rugby, having been named as the successor to Ian Foster as All Black coach after an incredibly messy last 12 months.
Then there's their coach at the time, Sir Wayne Smith. The title was added in the last fortnight, but it came as no surprise to anyone after his triumphant campaign with the Black Ferns last season. Add in five Super Rugby head coaches, one of whom is the father of a current All Black, and two Sky Sport commentators, the fact that arguably the three most important men in the game right now and all the rest came from the same team can be taken a couple of ways, though.
While it's nice to think of that era as a bit of a golden generation in terms of coaching talent, it does point to a fair degree of inhouse thinking when it came to appointing them. Robinson says that it's a reflection on what the mindset of the young men at the time was.
"When you look back on that time, we had different things in our lives already. We'd done study, either at uni or trades, or worked. Coming through the '90s we were used to thinking about doing other stuff, and the reality of having a career and education was something we were familiar with.
"The environment was different. I'm just theorising here, but I think people had to be more hands-on, because there wasn't the same sort of resource. People leant into areas a bit more and thought about what coaching could look like. And they were driven to be hugely successful and that's come through now. Smithy really drove having a growth mindset - you never finish learning, being curious.
"We were very fortunate to have a unique group of leaders at the Crusaders. Smithy, Robbie [Deans], Steve Hansen - in their own unique ways they really instilled lots of great values. They all had a huge passion, but they reminded us that we were very fortunate to be doing what we were doing, to be very grateful because it won't last forever."
However, while on-field lessons from two decades ago are one thing, Robinson sees them from only last year with the success of the Black Ferns at the Women's Rugby World Cup.
"The great thing about that is that you can go from being in a really precarious spot to one where you're creating confidence and momentum quite quickly, if you keep working at it."
